The Words Your Website Is Missing with Josh Hull

Have you ever looked at your website and wondered why it isn’t converting?

Maybe people are visiting and sticking around for a bit, but they’re not clicking, buying, or booking.

Often, the problem isn’t your design. It’s your messaging.

Today’s guest, Josh Allen Hull, is a coach, messaging strategist, and storyteller who helps business owners craft words that move people to action.

In this conversation, we discuss why so many websites fail to convert, how to simplify your message so visitors instantly know they’re in the right place, why vague calls to action like “Learn More” may be costing you sales, and how his PEACE Soundbites framework helps create messaging people actually remember.

Connect with Josh Hull

Josh Hull (or J. Allen Hull) is known as THE Coach’s Coach, helping coaches build thriving businesses while winning at home. As founder of The Purpose Driven Co., he teaches coaches how to grow to six figures and beyond through clear messaging, service-first sales, and systems that scale.

Facebook | LinkedIn | Instagram | Website

Grab his free Coach Builder Accelerator Group here.

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Transcript

Why Websites Fail To Convert

Carrie Saunders 0:00

So, a common thing we talk about on this podcast is why isn't my website converting? And today I have a special guest for you. His name is Josh Hall. He's also known as Jay Allen Hall. He is a coach, messaging strategist, an incredible storyteller who helps business owners create messaging that actually moves people into action. He's worked directly with Donald Miller and many of the other very large name people who are excel at this. In our conversation, we're diving into why so many websites fail to convert, how to simplify your messaging so people instantly know they're in the right place, why soft call to actions like Learn More might be costing you sales, and a fascinating framework called Peace Soundbites that helps you create messaging people actually remember. This episode is so packed with juicy goodness. I hope you love it. Let's dive in. Struggling to turn website traffic into real sales, you're not alone and you don't have to figure it out all yourself. Welcome to Smarter Online Business, the podcast for course creators, coaches, and e-commerce entrepreneurs who want their websites to convert visitors into buyers without the tech overwhelm. I'm your host, Carrie Saunders, a website strategist and conversion expert with over 20 years of experience. Each episode delivers simple, proven strategies to help you generate more revenue and make your website your smartest sales tool. Welcome back to the show. Today we have a special guest with us, and his name is Josh Hall, or also known as Jay Allen Hall. He's known as the Coach's Coach, helping coaches grow six-figure businesses through better messaging, smarter systems, and service-first sales. And what I love about Josh's approach is that he's not just focused on business growth. He's passionate about helping entrepreneurs build a success that actually aligns with their faith, family, and the life they want to live. So welcome to the show, Josh. I'm so happy to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Thank you, Carrie. I'm really happy to be here. It's totally my pleasure.

Josh Hall’s Story And The Mindset Shift

Carrie Saunders 2:00

So I just give a really brief intro on who you are. So tell us a little bit more about Josh, how you came to do the things you're doing, and uh any fun facts you want to share.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Yeah, absolutely. Uh appreciate that. So I've actually been uh coach for almost uh 10 years now. And I started because I was a former law enforcement officer. And uh I right after graduating the academy, got married to my beautiful wife, Mindy, and about three months later, I got hit uh in the groin, and we discovered I had testicular cancer. Now, I survived that. However, fast forward a few years, they put me on medication that you know how it says on the side of the bottle, it's a one in a million chance. Uh, well, I was lucky, Mr. One million, and at the age of 30 had a heart attack and lost 40% of my kidney function. And that was on top of my type one diabetes that I've had since I was 11. So I was told I'd never work again. Um, I went through the process of applying for disability. My wife was working for child and family services, seeing atrocious things happen to women and children. During that time, we had our one daughter, our oldest daughter, but she lost four babies. We lost four babies. And then um, I just, you know, and I was also diagnosed with young onset Parkinson's during that time. So I just finally, you know, I was waking up every day saying, There's nothing I can do, there's nothing I can do. And one day something shifted, and I said, There's something I can do, there's gotta be something I can do. Um, I uh things started change immediately. I started to see, you know, uh when you look for a yellow car, you start seeing yellow cars. So I saw an opportunity immediately. I helped a friend grow his online business. Then uh I grew a similar one for myself. And then I grew a financial service business to seven figures, um, and then transitioned out of that into coaching full-time. And uh I was initially productivity. Um I worked with, I used Dean Graziosi and Tony Robbins system to scale my business, grow it. And they took notice of that, that I was doing very well. So they contracted me to coach their clients. And I worked behind the scenes with their clients while still growing my own business for years, and then uh eventually became a consultant for them and helped them launch the Mastermind Business Academy and uh worked very closely with them on that. And then after that, I've I became Story Brand Certified as a guide. I became Small Business Flight Plan and Business Made Simple certified through Donald, these were all through Donald Miller, and I started to get to know Don and he and I became good friends. So I've worked uh behind the scenes with Russell Brunson, uh Brend Richard, Donald Miller, uh, Michael Hyatt, um Dean and Tony, a lot of great people. And in doing that and working with their clients, that's where I saw um a lot of coaches struggling with certain things, especially sales in particular. And that's where I developed my no sales call uh system so that you can build a six-figure coaching business, no sales calls required, because it really aligned with who I was. I didn't like sales and I was there, and so I decided to do something about it. And that's where I'm at today. I primarily work with coaches, but uh behind the scenes, I also have some other clients, some businesses, some churches that I help with their marketing and messaging and as well as organizing their business and getting it uh ready to scale. So I have a lot of fun. I work with a lot of different clients, I travel a lot. Um, but in the meantime, the good Lord has blessed my wife and I with four more little girls after losing those four babies. So I have a total of five daughters. They're 15, 10, 9, 8, and 7. All last four came one right after the other. I have a female English bulldog. So I'm outnumbered in my home. And uh, but I love it. 75% of my clientele are women, and we just get along great. I I think it's fantastic. And but because of that, I really do focus on helping my clients get what I call the twin win so that they can scale a successful business while winning at home and being that parent uh and spouse and partner that they want to be. So that's that's my background in a nutshell, a big nutshell.

Carrie Saunders 6:07

That that's quite the background. And I will say, you're still the king of the house, is what I like to say, because I'm still the queen. I have three boys and a husband. So I'm the queen of the house, you're the king of the house because you've got all girls.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

There you go. Absolutely.

Carrie Saunders 6:20

And then I want to point out, like in everything I heard you say, which was, you know, such such a variety of background, but there was one thing I want other the listeners to really pay attention to there is once you started looking for what can you do and that success path is when you saw it. And I think a lot of business owners sometimes need to hear that over and over again that when we when we look for what's not working, we find more of what's not working. But when we look for what we want to happen or where we want to go, we're gonna find those paths. So I think even in your intro, you had a little hidden message in there of, you know, look for what you want to happen, not what you don't want to happen.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Absolutely, absolutely. I always uh say, uh, you know, change your story, change your life. And that's really it. If you start looking, well, so if you don't mind, I I wouldn't mind just telling a little story about that. Um, yeah. When I was younger, my dad, uh, we had two four-wheelers and we love going out. And my my mom would ride on the back of one with my father, and and I would ride the other one. We grew up, I grew up in Utah and we go outdoors all the time and ride these trails. Well, my dad eventually got tired of my mom riding on the back. So he says, you know, she's gonna ride the smaller four-wheeler, and he bought me this motorbike. And and don't get excited, it wasn't a fancy brand new, it was a 1970-something Enduro bike that was like 500 pounds. It was basically a street bike that they put knobby tires on and said, Oh, by the way, you can also go off-road with this. It was it was awful. It was a Yamaha, it was huge, and it was yellow and black, and I remember that. And I got pretty good at riding it on the road. And where we lived at the time, it was the end of a development. And so at the top of this hill, of the the our road was a hill, and at the top, uh, it turned into a dirt path, a steeper hill that was a dirt path, and it'd been washed out in the middle. Now, on a four-wheeler going on this dirt path, you just put two tires on each side of the washout and you go up and you're fine. But on a motorcycle, you kind of have to go up the middle, it's kind of hard to balance on these steep sides. So my my father says, you know, you got to get used to going off-road. So I started practicing, I did that. But right in the middle of the halfway up this hill, there was this boulder sticking out in this washout. Now, of course, there's a little narrow path around it, but this thing's sticking out. So the first time I'm going up and I'm looking at the rock, I'm looking at it, it's looking at me, and I'm going up this trail and I'm like, don't hit it, don't hit it, don't hit it. And I hit it. And the bike stalls out, it lays over. And at the time, I'm this like little 75 pound, I was 14, I'm like this 75-pound half Mexican, nothing kid, right? Swim team kid, that like I'm like trying to lift this 500-pound bike and then push it up the hill, get it started, and we go. Well, this happens day after day. And after about a week, I came home from school and I said, forget it, I'm not riding the bike. I started backing the four-wheeler out of the driveway. My dad happened to come home early that day and he says, Hey, whoa, what are you doing? You're supposed to ride the bike. And I said, I said, Listen, dad, teach mom to ride it. I'm not doing it. I'm riding the four-wheeler. And he says, Okay, hold on, what's going on? So I told him, I said, there's this rock, I hit it every time. And I said, Dad, I'm looking right at it. I know where I'm not supposed to go. I'm looking right at it. And he said, Josh, that's your problem. Stop looking at where you don't want to go and start looking at where you do want to go. Your hands and your feet will take you in the direction that your head is pointed. So I thought, I mean, 14 at the time, I was like, okay, dad, I'll give it a try. But in my head, I'm like, whatever, old man, I'm gonna show you. I'm like, I'm gonna go up there, I'm gonna hit that rock harder than ever. So we're going up the trail, I'm going up the trail, and I'm like, don't look at it, don't, but I swear, I'm like, this rock's gonna jump out, it's gonna hit me something, and I'm looking where I want to go, I'm looking where I want to go. And next thing I know, I'm at the top of the hill. And I thought, huh. Guess he's not as dumb as he looks. I I guess I I, you know, I should listen to him a time or two. It's amazing. Mark Twain said this that uh his father was the dumbest man he'd ever met, but it was amazing how much smarter he got by the time Mark Twain had turned 21. Uh, I felt the same way. It's amazing how much smarter my parents got the older I got. But but no, I I've learned that. And it's a lesson that I've taken through me with throughout my life. And when I found myself at my lowest and feeling my worst, I think that lesson came back and reverberated, even if it was subconsciously, that stop looking at where you don't want to go, which is to be more disabled, to be more lack, more struggle, and look at what the possibilities are. Look, see if there's another open road, another open door. Um, and and it definitely affected me. So sorry I went off on tangent there, but hopefully that helps your listeners. Uh, you know, look where you want to go. Your your hands and your feet will take you in the direction that your head's pointed. And so make sure it's always pointed in a good direction.

Carrie Saunders 11:12

Well, I think that's actually a pretty good intro to like some of our topics today, because I find a lot of people are afraid of websites. You know, we're going to be talking about how do we change the words on our website to convert better in general, is what we're going to talk about. And a lot of people are like, oh, I don't know how I'm afraid, I'm scared, I could, you know, I can't do this. And so I think it's a really good intro to it because if we want to, if we want to get there, we need to look at where we're going and we need to just have faith that we will get there and we need to practice and we need to, you know, do the right things and always have that as much of a positive attitude as we can. We can't, you know, every day's not rosy and shiny, of course. But, you know, when you have a non-rosy and shiny day, you need to start looking for the roses in it and you know, try to, you know, you know, just shuffle those thorns off to the side, just look at the beautiful part of the rose and get focused on where we're going. Um, so into that, you know, so many websites fail to convert, turning visitors into buyers. So let's touch on that then.

The Three Biggest Conversion Killers

Carrie Saunders 12:12

Why do so many of them not convert and turn those visitors into buyers? Because I know our audience is working hard on their website, but they may be disappointed in the results of it.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

That's a great question, uh, Carrie. The there's a lot, there's I think there's two main reasons that I've seen. No, I'm gonna say three main reasons is I've worked with clients and I've worked with their marketing and their messaging and their websites. The first thing is that when we are too close to our businesses, I tell people all the time, I can help any business in the world except my own. Um, I I hire story brand guides to look at my messaging to make sure that it's not too what's I'm gonna use a term called high cognitive load, meaning that you got to burn a lot of calories, you got to think through it to understand the message. The problem is we are so close. We're PhD level experts. Okay. So as a PhD level expert, we think we're explaining it at kindergarten level, but we're not. We're still talking about it in PhD terms. So most people bounce off because they don't understand the problem you solve, they don't understand the solution that you offer. You start talking about methods and processes, and and we've been in business since 1982, and you know, nobody cares about that, right? They're there, we're we're looking for survival. And so I think that's the number number one reason is our messaging is off because it is too high cognitive load. I see this all the time. It's too hard to understand in five seconds or less, even though we think that it's easy, we're just too close to it. The second reason is not enough or not direct enough calls to actions. We want to be people's friends. Um, I was just coaching with Don Miller this last week, and this guy says, Listen, um, if I send a bunch of emails or if I put calls to actions like that on my website, I might turn some people off because I've spent years cultivating these relationships. And Don said, Good, turn them off, get subsc unsubscribes. Because we need to let people know, listen, I'm a business. Uh, this is transactional. We want to be relational in the sense of we want to let them know we care about your problem, but for me to fix it, you've got to do something. You've got to give me your email, you've got to pay me, you've got to attend a free class, or you've, you know, we've got to do a direct call to action to let them know how we're gonna help them. Because if we're just like, hey, that sucks that you've got that problem. I want to be your buddy, which is what most call to action sound like. Like, learn more. Like, come here, let me put my arm around you, let me let's learn more. Nobody, nobody's clicking learn more, right? It's like you literally need to put on there if you have this problem, then this PDF will solve it for you. Download now, right? Like that it needs to be that clear. So that's the other thing, soft call to actions. And then the third thing is is too much. We're trying to solve too many problems. You know, I help coaches to make sales without sales calls, but I also help them to avoid tech overwhelm. And then I also help them to know how to run social media, and I also, and then it's like you know, it just gets too confusing. Um, we have to own a problem, we have to own a whole. And that doesn't mean that we solve, we don't solve other things. There's there's there's ancillary things. But what we want to do, the way I put it is we want to let people know I solve this disease. Now, these are symptoms of this disease, but this is the disease I solve. You know, it's like going to the doctor, the doctor doesn't say, Well, you've got sniffles and sore throat and this and that, and then list all the symptoms and say, I'm gonna solve it. He says, You've got strep throat, right? Now, because you have strep throat, you're going to experience this and this and this and this. So I think those are the big three reasons to sum it up is number one is we're not clear on our messaging. We're we're too high cognitive load. Number two is our CTAs are too soft. And number three is that we're trying to solve too many things on one page instead of owning one problem, getting known for one problem.

Carrie Saunders 16:19

And I feel like you just summed up most of all my podcast episodes right there. I love that how we were so aligned in that. And actually, in a coaching call today with one of my clients, she had three learn more buttons, and I called it out on her. I'm like, let's work on the messaging on these learn more buttons. Some of our buttons were good, they were nice direct call to actions, and some of them weren't. Um, so I love how you are, you know, bringing things that I teach to the podcast too, because it's, you know, we're we're great at helping other people, but we it's hard to help ourselves, like you said. And I tell that people that on our coaching calls, but it's also great to hear it from another person to kind of reiterate um all the things you've been doing for the past 20 years with clients and helping them out. So I I I loved your um list of three there because it just it resonated so well with me. And then so you're welcome. So then I know on some, we're on a you know, coaching call together um with uh with

Peace Soundbites For Memorable Messaging

Carrie Saunders 17:14

Jenna, and I know that in that one of those calls you talked about peace sound bites. And I know that this can help a business grow, and it can sometimes help our messaging too, not only on our website, but in external things like social media and email marketing. So, can you explain to us a bit more about what peace sound bites are and how they help our business grow?

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Yeah, absolutely. That's a great question. So the peace sound bites are actually, just to preface this, the they're actually the latest iteration of what Donald Miller's teaching for his story brand framework. Um, so the the framework, the seven-part framework is still in place. What he said was, I gotta find a simpler way to help my clients implement this. And so the piece sound bites is what he came up with. And and uh he actually, the first time he taught it publicly was on an event that uh last year when I launched one of my programs and he taught it and he showed up and I went, I thought you were teaching this. And he's like, No, no, I'm gonna do this. And I went, okay, great. Um, but I've loved it ever since. And here's where we have to go back to. So let's go back to this idea that we think we're explaining things simply. Let's, if our business was a house, a house has to get into a house, you've got front steps, you've got a front porch, you've got a front door. The front door is the commitment. That's when they give us money. They've now come into the house, they're now part of our program. The front porch is what we like to call enlightenment collateral. That's where we talk about our process, our methods, the science behind all the stuff that we geek out on, right? This is where we're letting them know why it's a good decision to walk through the front door. The front steps, though, this is where we invite people into the up to the porch and into the house. Most businesses are missing the front steps. The front steps need to be simple, easy, and there needs to be five of them. And so Don said peace, P-E-A-C-E, right? We and these are just sound bites, these are what he calls curiosity sound bites. This is if somebody's walking past, hey, I wonder what's up there. That's a good looking house. I want to go check it out. We're gonna stop, we're gonna walk up there. Most people are missing steps. They got an eight-foot-tall porch, and then they expect people to make the leap up there to then make the commitment. So here's what it stands for. P stands for problem. We have to own a problem. Let me give you an example. When I was with uh Dean Graziosi, he was getting ready to launch a program, and I was a part of his mastermind, and I was coaching for him behind the scenes. He knew that I did productivity, but uh, and I I heard this story from six different people, including Dean himself. So I know it's true. Uh, he's sitting in a conference room and he's saying, Okay, we're gonna launch this next thing. The number one objection to our programs is cost, but that's gonna our sales team's gonna handle that. Well, we don't worry about that. In this room today, our number one problem we've got to solve is time management. People are frustrated because and and they say no because they've got a family, they've got a nine to five, and they go, How do I add this in? How do I build a business? Well, at that point in time, I was working specifically with online entrepreneurs and mostly coaches again, helping them with their productivity and time management. I develop a system specifically for them because most systems are for nine to fivers, not people that work from their home. So uh he says, How do we solve this? Five people at that table said, You've got to call Josh Hall. And he said, Josh Hall in my mastermind. And he said, Yes, you've got to call. And he literally picked up the phone, he called me. I see Arizona, okay. Hello. Hey, Josh, it's Dean. I'm like, hey, Dean, how are we doing? Doing good. I hear you're the guy to talk to about productivity. I said, absolutely. What do you need? We talked for a minute. He says, My team will get with yours. We got together, we made a deal. My productivity system became a featured bonus, the featured bonus in that that year's launch. And I wound up teaching on his stage to his students, to his clients, my productivity system uh in December of that year and having a three-hour wonderful experience with them. Uh, and then we did a Christmas party afterwards, and I got to party with Dean, and that was fun. Um, but the point being is I owned productivity at that time. Now, Dean knew Michael Hyatt, who's a great productivity guy. He knew he knows Tim Ferris, who's the four-hour work week guy. He knows um Dan Martell, who's the buy back your time guy. He could have called any of them to do some sort of a bonus or give a bonus course. I was the one that five different people out of 15 said you've got to call Josh. That's what you need to be. You need to own a problem. Okay. Right now, my problem is if you love coaching but you hate selling, then I'm the guy to help you build a six figure coaching business, no sales calls required. Required, right? So by the way, love coaching, hate selling. That's my problem soundbite. So the next is empathy. Empathy is really simple. It's just, hey, um, you're not weird for feeling that way, essentially. So my soundbite is is um, you know, love coaching, hate selling. Hey, a lot of coaches feel that way. You're not alone. In fact, I used to, right? So that's just including them in you're okay. A lot of people don't feel that way. Don't feel like you're the only one. In fact, I used to feel that way, right? So P E, P, uh problem, empathy, and then A is answer. This is just your program. That's why I created the Coach Builder Accelerator, and that could be it, right? Or join the Coach Builder Accelerator, or that's why I have this PDF. Like it could that could be your call to action. But the idea is the answer is your product, your service, your company, your business is the answer to this problem. And then the the C, so problem empathy, answer, C is the change. What's the aspirational, the immediate change they experience? So for me, it's build a six-figure coaching business, no sales calls required. That can actually become your tagline, your change. Um, in fact, it is for me. My that's my tagline. Um, but this is like what do I experience immediately? And then the last E is your end result. This is that Clint Eastwood riding off into the sunset after, you know, hurting all the bad guys and saving the girl. This is that end that happily ever after, the full Bob Ross painting. So when you people say, what's the difference between end result and or change and end result? Change is the immediate aspirational change, right? Um, I'm a better basketball player because I just bought Nikes. That's the immediate aspirational change. The end result for me is build your business doing what you love without the pressure you hate. So it's that long-term, I'm gonna continue building my business, I'm gonna scale it, I'm gonna love it every day of my life. I'm never, I'm not gonna have that pressure that I hate. And it resolves the tension we opened with the problem. Do you love coaching, but you hate selling? Yes. Do what you love to build your business and scale it without any of the pressure you hate, closes the story loop. So this literally takes people in story. By the way, story narrative is how we can sell best. Most of my coaching, you guys, I don't know if you know this, but I I shared a lot of stare stories in this. And most of my coaching comes through story because people relate to story. Um, if I get too much facts and figures, by the way, that's enlightenment collateral. But if I get too much into that, that 95% of coaches never make six figures, and those that do stall out before uh or stall out around 250. Yeah, it's cool. But then people's eyes start glossing over. And you know why? Because they're daydreaming, because their brain wants a story. So they start daydreaming, they start thinking about the movie they went to last night, or they start daydreaming about, you know, the girl that they want to take on a date this weekend or whatever, because I'm not engaging them in stories. So your piece, sound bites, the your curiosity, this is what informs your social media, your lead gen PDFs, though, you know, this is what gets people to stop and go, oh my gosh. But it also gets people to walk away. Because marketing should only have two responses to it. Marketing should have, oh my, oh my gosh, me too, or so what? I'm leaving. Right? Because if you start bringing people in and you have to convince them that they have this problem and they become a client of yours, then every time you have a meeting, you're gonna spend the first 15 minutes reconvincing them that you're the answer to a problem that they may or may not have. So I want people, if people are like, dude, I love sales calls, I'm an old school 80s used car salesman, I love it. I and I've had people tell me, no, I I thrive on it. Great, my program's not for you. And in fact, you would disrupt it if I brought you into it. So I'm not gonna convince you otherwise. But if you're like, I love the coaching. I could wake up, if I just wake up and coach every single day and never have to actually get on a sales call and just get a steady lead of people to work with and serve, life would be great and get paid for it. Then I'm your guy, right? So I want you to either say, Me too, please let me in or or tell me more, or I want you to say, so what? I'm walking away. And that's it. So again, that's a piece sound bites. I and they do a great job of helping you outline those curiosity sound bites, the curiosity social media pieces to get the right people to pay attention to you.

Carrie Saunders 26:34

Well, that actually you know makes a whole lot of sense to me because as you're talking about all that, you know, I was engaged in your story. I was listening, you know, on the edge of my seat. And we tend to remember things better when it's told via a story rather than when it's just factual, you know, otherwise it's like a textbook, and you we've all been to school plenty, you know, we don't want more textbookish type things thrown at us. Um, and I just love that how you make that, you know, pull you into it, that story and into and to not be too, you know, ex, you know, explaining too much. And you have the nice balance of the the problem and the awareness and you know, how are we going to take those next next steps? And you're right, a lot of people do tend to have that big leap to get from, you know, kind of curious to getting into the door. And I love how the piece um sound bite can really help us kind of make a formula of it, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Yeah, yeah. And you you made a a point that you know we remember story, and that's the point of these sound bites is to be memorable. Because think about it, you could go and sit through a three-hour movie, and then a week later, if you really loved it, almost shot for shot, retell it to your friend. Like you've got to see it because of this. But why do we struggle with tests at school? Because all we're memorizing are facts, right? But if we watch it in a movie, if we see it somewhere, um, or we watch it in a mood, we watch a history uh docudrama and it maybe fudges things to make a little more cinematic, and then we go take the test, we remember the fudged facts, and then we fail the test. I'm not that I've done that personally, but maybe I've done that personally because the idea is story is memorable. And then, you know, and again, if somebody says, uh, you know, if somebody's like, hey man, I love coaching. I I just hate the do you guys know a sales team or something? People remember, hey, there was a story I heard. It was this, these sound bites. If you love coaching and you hate selling, you got to talk to this guy, right? And that's the idea is right to not only be attractive to the right people, but be memorable. So even if they're the wrong person, they can go, oh, I know a guy for you, so they can come back. And you own that problem.

Carrie Saunders 28:52

Well, and I'm thinking to myself right now, as soon as we get off this podcast and I get done editing it, I'm gonna be working on my piece sound bite myself. And I additionally love how you gave the listeners permission to reject or turn off certain people too, because we were taught to be people pleasers in general, and we bring that into our business where oh, we've got to have everybody like us. Um, but you're completely right. We need the yesers, the heck yes, and the heck knowers, um, so that we don't have that gray area. Because, you know, in the 24 years of doing our business, I can look back and those ones that were the heck yes, some of them are still our clients today, like 20-ish years later. And the ones that were, well, you know, I I kind of had to convince them, not really convinced, convince, but you know what I mean. You persuade them, but like, you know, those are ones that end up being the pain in the butt clients. And in not saying that they're pain in the butt in that sense, but you can't help them if there's not that good match. So making sure there's that good match helps you help the client better and helps you have a more satisfying um online business and job and helping others.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Absolutely. And that's, you know, we talk about uh marketing being magnetic. What we forget, we always focus on the attraction side. What we forget is that a good magnet also repels the wrong polarity, right? So that's what we have to remember is we truly do want to be magnetic in every sense of that word, in the sense of attracting the right people, repelling the wrong people, and saying it's okay to send somebody on their way. It's okay. I don't need to convince because I was like you when I first started. Well, not like you, but like what you were just describing. Uh, when I first started, it was like, I need everybody to see things from well, and not only, but we want everybody to see things from our worldview. That my productivity system is the best because it does this and it, you know, and and oh, you're so wrong and you're you're awful, and and like trying to convince them. And it's like, you know what, but if they're living their life and they're happy the way they are, then you're actually gonna make them miserable. You're gonna make you miserable. I want to wake up every day, look at my my day and see, like, oh, I got Carrie on here today. Yes, I'm excited. I don't want to look on there and be like, oh, it's Carrie. Oh, geez. We spend 20 minutes just trying to convince her, right? So, and you the same thing. You don't want to look at your calendar, you want to look at your calendar and be like, I want you to look at it and be like, Josh, yes, I've got a coaching call. I want you to look and be like, oh, my coach is a jerk. I gotta spend 20 minutes of him telling me why I'm a miserable person. Ugh, right? So it it it does build retention. Like you said, you've got clients today that are still with you because they love working, because they're absolutely heck yes, and they love working with you and and you love working with them. So it's a it's a win-win when you uh look at it that way and really try to make your business truly magnetic in both sense of that word.

Carrie Saunders 31:45

Yes, and it helps you become a good partner with that other um person as far as helping their business, especially if we're like a coach or service provider. So

Fix Your Homepage Header First

Carrie Saunders 31:54

then let's jump into like our website. So if someone wants more leads or sales, um, I'm sure some people are thinking this already in their head. Where should they start fixing their website copy first? What are some of the first things they should be looking at to apply some of these techniques you've already given us?

SPEAKER_00 32:12

That's a great question. So the first thing I would do is your header. This is the first thing they're gonna see and that they're gonna land on. And the piece sound bites that you're gonna want to put in there. And again, the we're talking short sound bites, right? Like we're not talking big paragraphs to answer everything. Um, is the ones now. So what we what I shared with you before was the science. Now we're kind of getting into the art. So the ones that I would definitely make sure that you have in there are going to be your problem, your uh answer, and your change or end result. One of those, what, one of those two, or maybe both, but they don't have to be in that that uh order. So for example, mine is problem, it's big letters, love coaching, hate selling. Then the sub subtitle is the change, build your six-figure coaching business, no sales calls required. So it's kind of my tagline, it's a subtitle there. And then the third part is my answer. Join the Coach Builder Accelerator today. It's on a button, you got to click it, and hopefully you go there. The idea is for those people that so I tell people everybody is an emotional buyer, just some people need logic to justify it. Um, we all buy with our hearts. My 71-year-old father bought a Corvette, even though he's got arthritis in his knees and in his ankle, because he's wanted one since they were came out in the 50s. He has loved Corvettes my whole life. He's talked about Corvettes. So he's emotionally bought into this Corvette at 71 already. He walked onto the lot, he was ready to buy. But what did he need? He needed something so that he could justify it to his 45-year-old son as to why he went and bought this. Uh, when I go, you're crazy. And it's well, look, I could resell it right this second and make 10 grand on it. I got such a great deal on it. And and it, and it's got the, you know, and they gave me this and they gave, and I really took them for a ride. Like, I right, look, dad, you wanted it, you bought it. So that's why we want our header for the emotional people that are like, heck yeah, that's me. Click the button, take me down, tell me more about this program. Um, but you could even put your end result, or you could put the change first. I could have put, you know, in big letters, build your six-figure coaching business. No sales calls required. Do you and then under that put, do you love coaching, but you hate selling? Join the coach builder accelerator. I could have put the end results on there, but those are the four you're gonna want to play around with and see what's best. That's the first thing to fix because that's the first thing people see. That's oftentimes way too wordy. That's where we put things like solution statements. I help so and so. You know, by the way, get rid of I help because it's so overused now. People literally like they go off into daydream land when they they I help, oh daydream. And so um, find a better way to say that and and put it into short, memorable sentences. So even if they bounce off, even if they're like, nope, that's not me, when they're talking, you know, when when you're talking to somebody down the road and they go, Oh, geez, Carrie, I I uh, you know, I love my my coaching business. I just I hate the sales part. Do you know a sales team or somebody? You can go, no, but I know a guy that actually can show you how to do it without hiring a sales team, right? So that's the most important thing. The other thing is too with our websites, is we want them to be bottom heavy. And what I mean by that is instead of putting all the words right at the top, we want to start putting more words as we go down. And for the lot, this is for the logical buyer. The emotional buyer is gonna read the header, maybe the next section, they're gonna be like, I'm in. The emotional that needs logic, let's let's call them that. The emotional buyer who needs logic, they're gonna want to read more paragraphs. They're gonna read this is what you get, this is the you know, all of the transformation and the end result. And you can literally build out your website using your P sound bites to answer those questions as you go through of because the big question you have to answer is whether it's a product, it's a service, you're a coach, you're selling uh cleaner, whatever it is, is what does my life look like after using this person's product, service, whatever it is? They want to know what it's going to transform. That's the problem. We start filling our website with facts, figures, numbers, put those further and further down towards the bottom. Talk about the problem. Like right under the header, the next section should be the problem. That is like I like this visual, but I hate this term. That's like you've stuck the knife in and and now the next section, you're kind of twisting it, right? You're like, oh, I do have that problem. Then present the solution, present the the the or the excuse me, the the end result, the transformation, right? From problem to this is what life looks like after working with me. And then you can talk about yourself as the guide a little bit, but don't talk about yourself as the the as the hero of the story. I overcame all this, I did all of this, and this is how I did this, right? There's a place for that. You saw it in my intro, as I I explained that, but really your client, they're the hero. So you're the guide. And so when you phrase it that way, it's how how does my experience benefit you? What did I come up with? That's where, again, I brought around my story to this, and so I saw this problem, and so I solved it, right? It's for you, not because of me. So then after the guide, then we can start getting heavier and heavier on well, this is what you get if you buy today. This is the program or this is the the product, the service, and and then go on. And then if we want at the bottom, we can put a nice big fat juicy paragraph that says all the words we want to say. Um, we can word vomit at the bottom, and that's for that person that literally has to read everything and know everything. They can read it there, and then they and then they sell. But every section, by the way, should have a strong call to action of buy now, join now. Um, you know, don't do things like click here to get started or learn more. Those are kind of soft. Let's it should be buy now, join now. Um, you know, get you know, it's it's something that's gonna make them like clear. If I click this button, it takes me to the next step, not an interim step. Um, oh, and you do want a lead magnet somewhere on there. So if somebody's like, I'm not quite sure, again, more towards the bottom, you know, hey, if you don't know if this is right for you, download the PDF. But that's really the way you want to fix your. And by the way, here's a selling formula if you don't like selling. I already said it earlier, but this is Don's story brand selling formula. If you have X problem, then buying Y product is the right decision. It's just that simple. You just call it if you're struggling with this problem, then joining my program is the right decision. Or if you are, if you can't get your dishes sparkling clean, then buying this dish soap is the right is the answer to your problem, or is the right decision. People want to be affirmed that they're making, you know, most people like doing what most people do. So when you tell somebody that it's the right decision, they're like, oh, then I guess most people know this is the right decision. I'll do what most people do. So that's that's my advice on websites, just high level.

Carrie Saunders 39:37

Well, and I I actually could picture like the website as as it's going down and all the words on it and as it being built. Um, and I think there's a few things I want to point out because I think I think you did such a good job of really kind of visually laying it out. Um, but I don't know if you realize, and this is probably on purpose, but you may not think of it anymore. But in the beginning, you say who who your service is for. When you stated the problem, you encapsulated it's for coaches, right? And so I think, you know, pulling that out a little bit, pulling that out a little bit on what I heard you say, I think is important to know, note, because sometimes we're too vague on who we serve. Um, and you also really did a good job of explaining how I draw that person in, because you're totally right. People, people will scan a website first before they read the website. I was actually just going over that with a call today on a coaching call, is they will scan first before they read. They need to know quickly whether what's the benefit for them or they're gone. And you are talking underlying what you're saying, you're talking about the benefits first, and then you go into the features later for those logical-minded people like me. I need the emotional as well as the logical to buy something so I could totally relate it to what you're saying there, because I am definitely a logical person, especially having two engineering degrees. And so I loved how you really stepped us through. You know, here's where we want to we want to start thinner on our websites with words, and then it gets a little thicker as we go. It's almost like, you know, grass growing in a field. It's really thick at the bottom and especially underneath and in those roots, right? But then as it gets taller, it's thinner. So the top of our website needs to be less overwhelming, more um free, and you know, not have so much stuff for us to process because we don't want to have decision overload. And your call to actions are also great because it reduces that decision load too, because you're telling the person what to do. You're not like, oh, come join me, we'll, we'll, we'll hang out and I'll kind of help you. You know, you're like, I'm going to solve your problem if you click on this button, basically. So I love how you're very direct with the call to actions because it's very, I see a lot of business owners have trouble with that because they want to be humble, they want to be like kind and shy. And no, we need to be told what to do. I mean, when you spoke those words for some of your examples, I'm like, yes, I would click that button, you know, in a heartbeat, right? You know, and that's what we want to evoke into our potential buyers is yes, I definitely want this, or no, I definitely don't. And we're kind of going back to that previous point we had too.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, and that's that's the thing is when you confuse, you lose. And being clear is exactly, you know, calling out the the person you I've seen that a lot where it's just kind of this vague header, and it's like, well, is that for me or not? And look, I may or may not have the time. I I've got five daughters, and they all want dad's attention constantly. So, so if I click on someone's website, I might have three seconds of peace before I get interrupted if I'm sitting there on the couch, right? So I want to know immediately. If I have to start scrolling, I may wind up, you know, my youngest might come in. Will somebody come in? Dad, we need this, or dad, I love you. And I, of course, I'm gonna I love you too. And if boom, what do I do? I shut down the phone, I set it down, and then I forget I was even on that website. And so you want to call that out so I know immediately. So if it is for me and I get interrupted, then I know to come back to that website. But yeah, absolutely. We want to make sure that we're, you know, we're we're being clear and direct. Um, we need people to understand. Again, people think that we need to be a people pleaser, that we need to be friends with everybody, they need to understand this is transactional. Okay, we want to be empathetic, we want to let them know we love you, we see you. People want to be, by the way, if you just want to know a great formula for helping people, is people want to be seen, heard, understood, and loved. That's it. That's it. And so if you let them know that, you can let them know that and still be transactional by saying, Hey, look, this I I run a business. And this is how I make money. So if you want to be in my world, please click the button and give me money, and I will give you services or product in exchange. Now, maybe later on we'll become friends. When I entered Don's world, when I entered Dean's world, I bought their products. It was later on that as I continue to excel in their products, as I continued to purchase, and as I continued to serve them and try to help them out, that then I was invited into the friend circle. But before that, you know, it was trans, it was, hey, we're, you know, I'm gonna give you good value for the money, but this is about the money transaction. And and they solved my problems, and then I was able to help them. But that's the idea is like maybe I'll become your friend down the road. But it is the most disingenuous thing we can do for any business is to try to pretend like, hey, we just want to be your buddy right off the bat, right? That's we don't buddies don't make money, right? I I have a lot of buddies, I don't really make money off of them. Um, I have business partners who sometimes have become my buddies, and I have clients who have sometimes become my buddies. But the idea is like right off the bat, just because you downloaded my email or just because you gave me an email and downloaded my PDF doesn't mean I'm your buddy. It means here's some value in exchange for hopefully more value from you back to me. Right. And and so I think that's the idea is is those those direct call to actions, when you confuse, you lose, and clarity wins every time. And the right people will click on them, um, whether they need to scroll all the way to the bottom to do it, or whether they're like me. By the way, I'm like you. I I spend literally months on Amazon researching, like going back, like narrowing it down to two percent. My wife goes nuts, she's like, just buy it. And I'm like, no, I gotta figure out which one. But but at the end of the day, I've already bought it in my heart. At that point, I'm just trying to see which one's gonna give me the best features or give me the most value for my money, which one's on sale, right? But I've already bought it in my mind and in my heart. So um, so you want to definitely provide that for them. But again, you want Amazon is an ugly website and they make more money than God because they have direct call to actions, add-to-cart, right? So that's what we want to do, is is please, you know. I know you work with people with their website, so please make more beautiful websites than Amazon, but have those add-to-cart buttons because that's how they make money.

Carrie Saunders 46:36

Yeah, I think I actually have a podcast episode on the fact that it really doesn't matter what your website looks like, as long as if you you can get it to convert, even if it's ugly. And Amazon is a perfect, perfect example of that. Not saying we shouldn't have pretty websites, but the conversion parts more the key and then make it pretty after that.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Absolutely.

Carrie Saunders 46:59

So then as we wrap up, what are like, do you have any last minute like a bit of advice you'd like to give our listeners before we talk about, you know, uh free resource you have for them?

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Yeah, so just some of the last bits of advice, some common things that I run into, especially when we're talking about websites and you know, being getting the attraction, is um number one, our

Use Pain Contrast To Make Offers Shine

SPEAKER_00 47:22

brains are still wired for survival. People will respond more to avoid pain than they will to obtain good stuff. So I really I lean and and I I haven't seen it backfire, but I lean about 80% into the pain and about 20% into the the the pleasure or the the good stuff. Um now people say, now I don't want to be too negative. Um, and so this is really the crux of my the last piece of my advice is it's not about being negative, it's about shining brighter. So if everything around your product, around you, around your service looks dark, you will shine brighter. And people will actually perceive you as more positive. And let me give you an example. I was at a workshop, uh, it was with Don, and I was listening to the speakers. The speaker that came on talked about writing a legacy letter to your kids. That's his business. And the legacy letter came from the fact that his father died when he was young, and uh they found in his father's things that he'd written every year a letter to his kids, and so he had these legacy letters to read as he grew up, and that he had a connection with his dad. I mean, he's talking about death, he's talking about dying, he's talking about us dying. You need to write it because you never know when you're gonna die. You you don't want your kids to not know you. We're literally, I mean, like bawling, like get a beach towel, ugly crying, just bawling, right? And then Don comes out, and you know, we all kind of clean up. And Don comes out and he says, Hey, let me ask you, because Don likes to make this point, and this is why I I like making it. He says, Was that a positive or a negative presentation? And they're like, It's everybody, even me. I was like, That's positive. I mean, it's I feel great. I'm gonna write my kid a he says, Really? And everybody's yeah, and he's like, Because that was all about dying, that was all about you dying, his dad dying, everybody dying, and orphan kids not knowing their parents. Like that was his message. Like, don't leave your kids orphans and not knowing you, write a letter. And he says, But you felt more positive towards him and towards his product and towards what he wants you to do, the action he wants you to take, because it was surrounded by so much of the dark. And so there's a way we have to do that, and we have to look at that. How can we present our message on our websites where we are? I mean, again, why does the news always talk about the negative stuff? Because people are drawn to it, because our brains are wired to look for the tiger in the bushes, and we no longer have tigers in the bushes. So we're trying to make them up. So if you're gonna sell something, make up a tiger in the bush that I have to look at and go, oh my gosh. And then give me that 20% of here's the way out, here's the narrow path out of the danger zone from the tiger. And you that path will shine brighter, it will look more attractive, it'll look more appealing, and it will look like the only path out of that problem. And so if you can lean into that, don't be afraid to go. I promise you, nobody, I've never met any. I met one person, they went a little too dark. I went, all right, we gotta pull that back. But um, but most of the people, 99 out of 100, 99 or 99 million out of 100 million, will uh will not go too dark. So learn to to to really emphasize that problem and and contrast that with you as the answer and really give them enough of that problem in bullet points and in paragraphs that when you present yourself as the answer, that's that coming up for air, you know, gasp of breath, fresh air that they they get. And then they're like, okay. Then you say, so click here to buy now, or click here to join, or click here. Essentially, you're just saying click here to avoid this pain, and they'll click. And that's my last piece of advice on that.

Carrie Saunders 51:15

And I again, I could totally you you're such a good storyteller. I could totally visualize the situation with the beach tow and all the crying, as well as the situation of places of times in my life looking back where I've bought the thing because it was actually portrayed just like you're saying. And and so I I just feel like I want to, I want people who are listening to think about that. Think about some of the things you bought. Was it portrayed just like Josh told us? And and I feel like some of those higher ticket items I've bought definitely were. And I didn't hesitate as much as I would have normally hesitated to clicking that buy purchase because they brought me into that that story where I saw that the way out was through this narrow 20% path as you described it to get to the solution to get me away from the pain. Uh, so I I just feel like that was just such a great little wrap-up story. Um, and I could so totally see everything you were talking about in my brain.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

Yeah. Well, and it's all about being a survival asset. Like I said, our brains are still looking for survival. So if you can why do we get married? I mean, I I don't want to sound like callous. I love, I adore my wife, but at the end of the day, we look at it as survival assets. Women look at men for specific things that I can thrive and so I can survive and thrive with this man. And and I, you know, men look at women, and and here's the thing when you when do you be when does a man become a survival liability? Well, when he's uh no longer providing money or when he's cheating, when he's uh beating, you know, up people or being violent or verbally abusive, that's a survival liability. Don't be a survival liability, present yourself as a survival asset. And the best way to do that is to show how dangerous it is around this person and that you are the asset, the survival asset that's going to get them. Uh I mean, and and this can be for anything from nightlights all the way up to, like you said, large ticket uh items. Even, even I talked to a man one time, one of my clients, he bought a McLaren. I mean, this is like a one of the most expensive cars on the planet. And he bought it. I said, Why did you buy that? He said, Because the salesman made it seem like I would never get married if I didn't buy this car. And I said, Well, did you get married? He says, I did. I got married to the second girl I gave a ride in this car, and she was so impressed, and it wasn't the car, but she was just so impressed with me as a human being that I owned this car, but I was still, you know, a great guy. Um, I said, see, so is a survival. And he says, Yeah. He says, My my McLaren got my wife. So, you know, I mean, it's a survival asset, and anything can be presented in a way to be a survival asset, so long as we make life. I mean, I I want to talk to that guy that sold that like mil what is it? They're like multi-million dollar cars. And they're a lot. That's the guy. I want to hire that guy for my program. That guy could probably sell, I mean, literally sell ice to an Eskimo. If you could present getting married and connect that to a McLaren, dude, that guy's that guy's in the leg hall of Hall of Fame legendary uh status right there.

Carrie Saunders 54:22

Yeah, must

Free Coach Builder Accelerator Resource

Carrie Saunders 54:23

have. I'm I'm definitely a car buff and I those cars are very, very expensive. Um, so I know that you have a free resource that you'd love to share with us. So tell us a little bit about it, the the free Coach Builder Accelerator group you have.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

Yeah, so um the Coach Builder Accelerator Group, uh, if you go to CoachBuilderaccelerator.com, it's a free group. It's actually a tiered group, it's on school. Um, but our free level, we offer a lot of value. First thing that you're going to get is this uh the signature six steps to a six-figure coaching business. That way you can start implementing right away the ideas and the concepts of how to build a business without selling. The second thing you're going to get is story brand uh training directly from Don Miller, who actually contributed to me to allow this. Uh, and you're gonna watch the story brand framework. You're gonna watch Don go through the piece sound bites. And this is going to give you an opportunity to really decide how you're going to present yourself as a survival asset, as well as uh how you're going to position yourself as a solution to the problems, what problem you're going to solve, and just everything we talked about today. Um, and then the third thing that you're going to get right off the bat is my purpose-driven productivity. My original productivity system that wound up being a featured bonus in Dean Graziosi and Tony Robbins program, because my philosophy is that no worldly success can compensate for failure in the home. It doesn't matter if I make a million dollars a minute, if I'm not spending time with my family, if I don't have the energy or the time to be with them. So we're going to give that to you for free. And then you're going to get a weekly training every Thursday. We're going to go live and uh in the school group and give you a training. The idea is to keep you ahead of the curve so that you can keep uh growing. And my goal is eventually to have you join. Uh again, we're just going to be honest here. Uh, it's not about being friends. I want to be your friend, but my goal is to have you be able to join the premium and VIP levels where you can learn even more, get more direct story brand coaching directly from me, as well as other uh things that we're talking about that are really helping the students to accelerate and grow their six-figure coaching business without any sales calls. At the end of the day, my goal for you is to be able to have that life that you want, to be able to wake up every day loving your job, loving your business, uh, not being owned by your business, not just having another job that you created, while at the same time loving your home life and being present and being purposeful in your and intentional in your life decisions and the things that you're doing, and ultimately the legacy that you're leaving. So that's the free gift. Go to coachbuilderaccelerator.com. Uh, there's a whole lot more there as well that you're going to get a lot of bonuses, bonus courses and uh freebies and things like that. But the idea that we really want to emphasize is are those three core curriculums as well as the weekly trainings that are going to accelerate your opportunity to build your coaching business, your consultancy business, even marketing agencies uh and other businesses that uh I've worked with, they're they're in there because they're just so much value. So love to see all of your listeners in there and help them out and start getting their businesses growing.

Carrie Saunders 57:38

That sounds really wonderful, Josh. And for those listening that might be on the go or on the run or whatever, we will have the link in the show notes as well. So make sure you check that resource out by Josh. It sounds wonderful. I'm definitely going to check it out myself. So thank you so much, Josh, for being here today. I'm I'm gonna have to really listen to this episode. I learned so much. I already, you know, know some of Don Miller's stuff. I read several of his books and been in, you know, we talked before the interview. I'm in one of his um courses, and I just absolutely love his stuff. And I love how you also bring your version of it and your version of you to help business owners and coaches out there. So thank you so much, Josh, for being here.

SPEAKER_00 58:20

It has truly been my pleasure. I really appreciate the invitation to be here and for having me on and for letting me tell stories and ramble for a little bit. Uh, my girls will definitely appreciate that because there'll be a lot less rambling later on this evening when I get to spend time with them. So thank you again for having me. My pleasure for being here.

Carrie Saunders 58:38

No problem. Thank

Final Takeaways And The Five Second Test

Carrie Saunders 58:39

you. What a fun conversation with Josh. I absolutely loved how he broke down messaging in such visual, memorable ways, from the idea of your website needing those front straps that invite people in to the reminder that clarity wins every single time. It's something we talk about a lot on this podcast. One of my biggest takeaways from this conversation is we often make our websites way too complicated because we're too close to our own business. We know how and what we do so well that we accidentally make our messaging harder for other people to understand. It's something I struggle with. It's really hard to work on your own website. I also love that the reminder that not every visitor is supposed to become a customer. Good messaging should attract the right people and help the wrong people realize it's not for them. That alone can save you so much frustration. If you've enjoyed this episode, make sure you check out Joss's free resource. I'll have the link waiting for you in the show notes. And if this episode made you realize your website messaging might need a little attention, take a fresh look at your homepage this week and ask yourself this question. Can someone tell in five seconds what I do, who I help, and what action I want them to take? If not, that might be your next best project. Thanks so much for hanging out with us today, and I will see you next week.